DUST Search - Armor Heavies vs. Mobile Heavies

GET ATMESON wrote:

Damus Trifarn wrote:

Bears Beets wrote:

GET ATMESON, you make a good point. If I had the SP to throw around, I'd give your build a try.
However, I don't think I'd be able to give up my Complex Armor Repairer. I'd probably have to run Cardreg, Kincat, and Repper for my 3 lows.
I'd really like to see how your fit performs in-game. I bet it's awesome to watch Pirate

As for the patch, I'm really not excited about the changes to the HMG Operation skill. Recoil is not an issue. Bullet spread is. You can mitage 100% of recoil by feathering R1 (firing until the reticle starts to shake, then letting go and re-pressing R1 super fast resets the recoil buildup).
I am, however, rather interested in reload skills. They've been pretty useless up until now, but with the reduced SP cost and increased bonus, you should be able to lower your 8 second reload to something like 5 seconds. Could be interesting.

Sorry to take this thread away from its original purpose, but I just can't stop myself once I start talking Heavy Lol

No problem Bears; it's awesome to see where these conversations can go. I'm also really interested in ATMESON's build and would love to try it out. If only I didn't need to invest in my PG skill...

All it takes is PG lvl 3. If you use my build just remember who help you got the idea from :)


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Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 19	Posted - 2013.08.13 21:30:00 - [1] - Quote After having a great discussion on my previous thread that included a guide on an Armor tanking Heavy by Megaman Trigger ( https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1173556#post1173556 ) I decided to make my next Heavy thread about that decision of what to do with a Heavy suit in terms of armor vs. mobility. Both are great at different things, and they both have the potential to be lethal forces on the battlefield, so what should you choose? Well, here I will attempt to combine the opinions of different mercs to give you an objective guide for both options. First, let's consider a mobile Heavy: Sentinel suits and Basic suits have their differences, but both play out well for this one specialization: Sentinel: the extra low slots give you room for Cardiac Regulators and Kinetic Catalyzers to move more quickly and for longer durations than the basic suit Basic: extra high slot gives you the ability to put more damage on your HMG or Forge, giving you the ability to dish out extra damage when you encounter enemies, which you will do more often if you move around the battlefield rather than be stationary Now, let's consider the modules themselves. A common complaint of Heavies is that they can't move fast enough or that they can't run long enough to make up for it. Cardiac Regulators and Kinetic Catalyzers solve this problem by increasing stamina and speed, respectively. Something that I recommend, though, is that you have at least 1 armor repairer because you will need a way to sustain yourself if you move around (meaning that you won't always have an ideal defensive position to minimize damage) and find yourself without a Logi. I've also found that two Cardiac Regulators give you more than enough stamina, outlined in the thread I linked earlier. Because of this, I use two armor repairers for more efficient repairing so that when I get to where I need to go I have more health. Kinetics in place of that 2nd repairer will help you move even faster though, so it's whatever you want. The advantages of this are mainly that you are more easily able to defend multiple positions because you can go back and forth often, and that you are less vulnerable to being flanked and out maneuvered. You will also be able to be a more tactical Heavy of sorts, not having to stay in one general area and play whack a mole if you find yourself under attack. This is certainly not your only option with a armor tanking Heavy, but it is more likely to happen if you are not mobile. The disadvantages are that you do not have significantly greater amounts of health from other suits if they happen to have lots of shield or armor, so you are more susceptible to being killed about as fast as others if you find yourself caught off guard. You will also have to retreat more to recover that health that you will desperately need to counteract the lower total health. Overall, this style promotes a self sufficient, mobile Heavy capable of defending hubs of objectives. For an example of a battle with such a class, see my other thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1138391#post1138391 Now for the Armor Tanking Heavies: Again, this style is changed through Sentinel and Basic Sentinel: extra low slots = more armor plates and repairers Basic: extra high slot = more damage output with less ability to soak up damage (if you haven't noticed already, basic suits are for the offense oriented Heavy while the Sentinel is for the defense oriented Heavy) Armor tanking Heavies address another common complaint: lack of superior health. Most Heavies feel that they are too easily killed for being a tank like class, and this style fixes that. (if you remember one thing from this post, remember that modules break or make Heavy suits) They are mainly focused on keeping enemies occupied, taking the damage because they can while they rack up kills and assist as their fellow mercs come in to finish the job. They typically have as many armor plates as possible with the exception of having one armor repairer. For the vast amount of health you'll have this seems worthless, but it does allow you to recover health without a Logi, giving you some sustainability. The advantages of this build are that you can take immense amounts of damage, and if you are good at aiming, you can often down an enemy with well over 400 health in your armor left. This suit can survive for a very long time with a squad and is often a deciding factor in a battle because if the team focuses on killing you your squad can easily kill them. You will definitely want flux grenades to take out shields, because if you face a shield tanking merc you are in for a rough ride if you carry around an HMG. Anything to negate that shield helps because the bonuses and penalties to shields are less than the bonus and penalties to armor, so you definitely need to bring them to your level. The disadvantages are that you are incredibly slow with all of those penalties and you will often need a LAV to move around quickly, but if the vehicle limit is reached, you're left to a slow trudge through the battlefield. Snipers are also deadly, but you are still more likely to survive than most. You are also left to rely on team members more, but this is true for any heavy. The main disadvantage is the fact that you can get outflanked and out maneuvered more easily when you're so slow. Thanks for reading this thread! I hope it helps you decide what is best for you as a Heavy. If you have any more questions or other tips, I'd love to hear them and use the insight for my next thread. For guides made by mobile heavies, see my thread linked at the top or Bears Beets' "The immortal Heavy: A Basic Guide" (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1125000#post1125000) For a guide written by an armor tanking heavy, see Megaman's guide posted in the same thread at the top.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 19	Posted - 2013.08.13 23:56:00 - [2] - Quote Megaman Trigger wrote: Both load outs have a few things in common; Both set-ups tend to suffer at the hands on Mass Drivers for one reason or another, either they're low health (mobile) or low speed (armour) works against them and Mass Drivers, being explosive, are very effective against armour. So once those shields go, the Heavy'll go in less than a clip. Worse, you can't be revived. Another shared problem is the reload on the HMG; if you have to reload in a firefight, you can kiss your clone goodbye. The reload on the HMG, unless you max out the reload skill with a Proto Sentinel, is ridiculously slow. Those are common problems that I didn't consider. Thanks for pointing them out. I've found that an SMG as a sidearm solves my problems with slow reload for the HMG. As for MD users, I toss a grenade and they tend to get too jumpy to be effective, but that only works for some of the time. Guess that's where CCP wants us to rely on our Logis or other mercs. If anyone has found another decent counter to MD users, feel free to post it.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 21	Posted - 2013.08.19 16:45:00 - [3] - Quote I think it's the lack of modules on the Commando that drive people away from it; maybe they prefer to put kincats on the Heavy to increase speed back up to assault suit levels.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 21	Posted - 2013.08.24 16:26:00 - [4] - Quote I'm surprised that I don't see more of the Commando honestly; it has the potential to be a deadly force on the battlefield, especially for people who like Assault suits. One reason it may not be so popular is that most people love the SMG so much they prefer it over some light weapons, and some even dual wield them. Another could be the fact that grenades are so good they can make do with only one light weapon when they have a flux or av on hand. The Commando has great potential, it's just that everybody wants to go to the cheaper options which can do generally the same thing in most cases.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 23	Posted - 2013.08.25 18:22:00 - [5] - Quote Yep. Hopefully when racial variants come out for Heavy suits and weapons it'll draw more attention to the Commando as well as the Sentinel (can't wait to try out the Minmatar Heavy)
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 25	Posted - 2013.08.25 22:46:00 - [6] - Quote I agree that the Commando should get another slot or an equipment slot. It needs something to make the suit more versatile, which is its main selling point anyway with 2 light weapons. It might need some extra CPU/PG to compensate for the slots, but I'm no expert on deciding those numbers. I'm looking forward to seeing the racial variants of the Commando as well. We could see some very interesting setups once all the Heavy suits come out, but until then I'll wipe out my enemies with my Amarr Sentinel
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 26	Posted - 2013.08.28 00:59:00 - [7] - Quote I'm interested to see how the Gallente Heavy does with all of that armor; it will be the incarnation of armor tanking. I just like Minmatar for their speed which suits my strategy as a Heavy (and for breaking free of the chains of the Amarr. Freedom!)
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 26	Posted - 2013.08.28 02:27:00 - [8] - Quote Maybe the new Heavy weapons could deal with them but I assume too much...
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 26	Posted - 2013.08.28 02:36:00 - [9] - Quote Nice, I would've loved to have that when the Caldari Logi was considered OP by everyone, but I'll settle for killing people with my Boundless HMG. Gotta love the Minmatar weaponry.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 27	Posted - 2013.08.29 00:35:00 - [10] - Quote I was terrible with Forge Gun sniping when I tried it to see what all the hype was about, so I stuck to using them as long range AV. Still, the sheer joy of killing a random soldier that runs up to me is priceless.

Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 27	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:45:00 - [11] - Quote Can't wait for the changes to armor; I may even start armor tanking now. I'm also very excited for the new matchmaking system, provided it actually works.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 27	Posted - 2013.08.30 00:04:00 - [12] - Quote Megaman Trigger wrote: Given your playstyle, a mixed set-up of Plates and Cardiac Regulators would probably suit you well. My thoughts exactly; I may make a Sentinel with 2 plates, 1 rep, and 1 cardiac regulator. Oh, the joys of being of Heavy. Can't wait to see you on the field with the new plates; considering your playstyle, you'll get a significant boost in your game. Our time is coming.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 27	Posted - 2013.08.30 00:17:00 - [13] - Quote Yep, tanks need some love. Hopefully 1.5 will expand on the armor and shield balance for tanks since it's supposed to be a patch to fix tanks.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 27	Posted - 2013.08.30 00:53:00 - [14] - Quote Yes, but tankers have very different perspectives on armor vs. shields than infantry does (I see most tanks armor tanking while most dropsuits shield tank) plus they have better repairers, passive modules, active modules, etc. I have no idea what to do with tanks, but from my experience they seem to have an entirely different view on what needs to be done to armor and shields. Hopefully CCP can answer their problems as well as infantry's in the following patches; this one has given me some more hope.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 27	Posted - 2013.08.31 00:16:00 - [15] - Quote True; hopefully they can at least get some balance. I hope this patch will help with that, but I think people with my playstyle will diminish now that armor isn't as taxing on mobility.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 27	Posted - 2013.08.31 20:09:00 - [16] - Quote Yeah that's more likely to happen; maybe Ferroscale and Reactive plates will see some more use as well.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 30	Posted - 2013.09.01 23:58:00 - [17] - Quote I think CCP's reasoning behind reactive plates is the ability to stack them without using up all your low slots, but that isn't much of a justification. Ferroscale plates are decent, and I think we'll see more use out of them with the increase in health with 1.4. I'm particularly interested to see how Ferroscale plates do with a Sentinel seeing as they have 4 low slots at the proto level. No speed penalty and, despite stacking penalties, a significant increase in armor. Now all we need is a Minmatar suit and we've got a true mobile heavy.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 30	Posted - 2013.09.02 01:36:00 - [18] - Quote Wow, I feel stupid lol. Thanks for pointing that out.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 32	Posted - 2013.09.02 14:44:00 - [19] - Quote Thanks; speaking of armor reps, I've been looking into how skill level affects their total rate, and with my maxed out skill I can stack two advanced armor reps and the total rate is as if I have 3 equipped. With maxing the skill out I have a Sentinel with with a repair rate of 12, assuming I stack two proto reps. Now I'm looking into the bonus with plates, especially with reactive plates; if a repairing bonus and armor bonus both apply then maybe its stats become somewhat decent.
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 33	Posted - 2013.09.02 21:23:00 - [20] - Quote Thanks for the info; I neglected to look at the patch more closely concerning the exact changes to armor modules. The removal of the rotation modifier will be awesome, and I'm also ready to try out my new proto repairers.

Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 33	Posted - 2013.09.02 23:46:00 - [21] - Quote No, fortunately the bonus gives your dropsuit a base +1% on stamina, stamina recovery, and sprint speed per level (I think I'm forgetting one though)
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 33	Posted - 2013.09.03 11:45:00 - [22] - Quote Bears Beets wrote: GET ATMESON, you make a good point. If I had the SP to throw around, I'd give your build a try. However, I don't think I'd be able to give up my Complex Armor Repairer. I'd probably have to run Cardreg, Kincat, and Repper for my 3 lows. I'd really like to see how your fit performs in-game. I bet it's awesome to watch As for the patch, I'm really not excited about the changes to the HMG Operation skill. Recoil is not an issue. Bullet spread is. You can mitage 100% of recoil by feathering R1 (firing until the reticle starts to shake, then letting go and re-pressing R1 super fast resets the recoil buildup). I am, however, rather interested in reload skills. They've been pretty useless up until now, but with the reduced SP cost and increased bonus, you should be able to lower your 8 second reload to something like 5 seconds. Could be interesting. Sorry to take this thread away from its original purpose, but I just can't stop myself once I start talking Heavy No problem Bears; it's awesome to see where these conversations can go. I'm also really interested in ATMESON's build and would love to try it out. If only I didn't need to invest in my PG skill...
Damus Trifarn The Yellow Lantern Corps 33	Posted - 2013.09.03 23:47:00 - [23] - Quote GET ATMESON wrote: Damus Trifarn wrote: Bears Beets wrote: GET ATMESON, you make a good point. If I had the SP to throw around, I'd give your build a try. However, I don't think I'd be able to give up my Complex Armor Repairer. I'd probably have to run Cardreg, Kincat, and Repper for my 3 lows. I'd really like to see how your fit performs in-game. I bet it's awesome to watch As for the patch, I'm really not excited about the changes to the HMG Operation skill. Recoil is not an issue. Bullet spread is. You can mitage 100% of recoil by feathering R1 (firing until the reticle starts to shake, then letting go and re-pressing R1 super fast resets the recoil buildup). I am, however, rather interested in reload skills. They've been pretty useless up until now, but with the reduced SP cost and increased bonus, you should be able to lower your 8 second reload to something like 5 seconds. Could be interesting. Sorry to take this thread away from its original purpose, but I just can't stop myself once I start talking Heavy No problem Bears; it's awesome to see where these conversations can go. I'm also really interested in ATMESON's build and would love to try it out. If only I didn't need to invest in my PG skill... All it takes is PG lvl 3. If you use my build just remember who help you got the idea from :) That's exactly what it's gonna take for me to put 2 complex armor repairers (for now I can only use one). Then I've got all my proto modules equipped! I can't wait to see all the combinations that will come up when the other variants come out; the variety in builds already is astounding.